PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)

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8 years 6 months ago #1 by Wally
My second PV-1 Ventura build is underway, she will be NZ4509 with 2 Squadron Mar-April 1944 at Guadalcanal, partially repainted in NZ Blue Sea Grey over the old US Blue Gray/Lt Gray delivery scheme. I thought I'd share my experience of opening the cowl flaps, which was quite time consuming but not specially difficult and I figure will greatly improve the appearance of the finished model. The photos are self-explanatory. They also self-explain that I work with a relative lack of precision tools; in this case hobby knife, triangle file and sandpaper. Once cut the flaps bent out well and then I reinforced them in position with superglue. Historic photos reveal that all the cowl flaps opened but one each side per cowl on the kitset is attached to mounting lugs. I figure I would need a razor saw to split them so I cheated these by attaching cowl flaps cut off Tamiya's F4U-1 closed option, shaping them a little and reversing them to get the 'open' angle.
I will open them up further next time. They've arrived in a partly or about half open position. The last photo is just sitting in position on the nacelle, because, having done this, I must now make some concession to what might be seen within.















Reviewing photos in Pacific Twins also reveals that many and perhaps most of our PV-1s wore hubcaps or had solid-hubbed wheels and only spoked wheels are provided in the kitset. I shaped some Hasegawa P-40 Kittyhawk hubcaps though they protrude too far and are perhaps a little small.



Finally a QUESTION - Does anyone know (or swear by) a manufactured paint colour or a mixing formula for NZ Blue Sea Grey? I have read several equivalent or near equivalent statements. Pacific Twins indicates a colour called Pantone 504 for fresh NZ BSG and PRU Blue for weathered. It also says, "Similar to British Light Mediterranean Blue". I have also heard that Isreali Camo Blue (Early) is a near equivalent. Let me know ... and if no-one does I'll know it's up to me to mix it myself.
Cheers,
Wally.

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8 years 6 months ago #2 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
These are the two photographs I have to work from. Picture 1 is small & not a very good reproduction but a magnifying glass on the original version (in Air-to-Air) clearly reveals the visible repainted areas. Paint demarcation lines between the NZ Blue Sea Grey and the original (faded) US Blue-Grey can be seen very clearly in Pic 2, eg above the centre of the American's head.





Extensive internet searches have failed to reveal any more photos of NZ4509 after repainting. The leading edges of the wings appear to have been repainted but the big question is the upper wing surfaces? I wonder if anyone knows? Or where I could find out?
NZ4509 received 21 hits in it's 24 Dec air battle, especially to the tailplane & fuselage. She was apparently repaired at Santos in Jan 1944. I figure the partial repaint can be explained by 1) damage repair areas only being repainted and perhaps 2) areas where new insignia & codes were to be applied?
It might come down to my best guess - as with the colour NZ Blue Sea Grey - but if anyone has more information on the aircraft (or colour) or sources or links please let me know?
Meantime the build progresses, bomb bay doors closed this time -













Cheers, Wally.

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8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #3 by Wally
THE HUNT FOR NZ OCEAN BLUE (NZ BLUE SEA GREY)
In Ventura's 'Pacific Twins' Appendix 2 pg 64 NZ Blue Sea Grey is identified thus -
When New FS 35053 - 35109
Pantone 504
In-Service, weathered 35164 - 35177 (approx)
BS636 PRU Blue (close)
Similar but unrelated to RAAF's Mediterranean Blue ...
I found 2 very useful resources online
colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=35090+35042
FS Colors can be viewed and compared. The page you will arrive at from this link is a comparison of the colour within the above range I like best for NZ Ocean Blue (top) and Sea Blue FS35042 (bottom). Select 'Browse by Palette' (upper left of page) to see all Blues together, FS35053 is there.
I had already purchased AeroM Mediterranean Blue & French Dk Blue Grey and mixed a colour I was fairly happy with also using US Green 42 but I was still apprehensive. Having a colour to match FS35053 (or nearby) would be the best place to start.
www.paint4models.com The Ultimate Color Conversion Chart provided the answer
[What a fantastic resource!?]
FS35053 = RLM 24 Blue
They are identical according to this website (which looks very reliable to me).
I couldn't find a match for my slightly brighter, slightly greener FS35090 so I am going to purchase RLM 24 and tint it up a bit. This will provide the fresh NZ Ocean Blue colour which I will then fade in the direction of Color of Eagles PRU Blue.
The other colour involved in RNZAF PV-1 Ventura repaints was, of course, NZ Sky Grey (or NZ Sky) which 'Pacific Twins' identifies as FS35352 (close) or BS631 Light Grey. I have mixed this to my own satisfaction already from my existing stocks using AeroM Lt Gray, French Lt Blue Gray and French Dk Blue Gray (and, in A/M Lt Gray FS36222 finally found my [potentially] one coat Insignia White! Yay].
Most of you guys probably know all this already but I hope my research is of assistance to other RNZAF modellers.
Cheers,
Wally.

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Last edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Wally. Reason: mention A/M Lt Gray as Insignia White

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8 years 5 months ago #4 by Wally
NZ4509 partially painted in AeroMaster USN Blue-Grey over A/M Lt Grey (self-mixed), patiently awaiting the arrival of RLM 24 Blue (FS35053) for the mixing of NZ Blue Sea Grey. (Meantime another issue of Classic Warbirds 'Aussie Beaufighters, Kiwi Corsairs' claims that US Blue-Grey & NZ Blue Sea Grey are exactly the same colour). I've done the original delivery scheme as being very faded. You can see from the unpainted areas which parts I have determined (from grainy &/or limited photo sources) to paint in "Ocean Blue". It will look quite strange I reckon. This kitset is SO straightforward compared to Acc Mins B-25D Mitchell, another Pacific Twin, which I proceeded with in the interim. Cheers, Wally.


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8 years 5 months ago #5 by tgapete
Replied by tgapete on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Hi Wally, have here from the '80's Warren Russells books. Blue/Grey or Pacific blue, the RNZAF name Ocean Blue, was based on BS381s No636, otherwise known as PRU Blue. his quivalent Humbrol mix used 1x HU5 to 1x No34. Also note that NZ mixed paints apparently faded quite quickly, possibly due to the pigments and of course the severe conditions in the tropics. They could also look a bit different depending on the application method, so you do have a bit of scope! :huh:

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8 years 5 months ago #6 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Thanks for that. Good to know. I think 'scope' will play an important part, as will fade. Hopefully my RLM 24 will arrive today. Cheers, Wally. (and Welcome to KM if you have only just joined? Is that a build of yours, a Stuart?)

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8 years 5 months ago #7 by tgapete
Replied by tgapete on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Not a worry . Correct on both accounts, only just put my name in, also Stuart Hybrid, markings for North Auckland Mounted Rifles, when around Kaitaia circa 1942-3.

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8 years 5 months ago #8 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Awesome! Local content, love it. I never knew we had Stuarts, which happen to be about my favourite tank because of Tenaru River on Guadalcanal. Was the subject hard to find? Is it up on Armour Showcase? I'm sure other "treadheads" would be interested.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #9 by Wally
:unsure: Okay, well, if FS35053 (approximately fresh Ocean Blue) is the same as RLM 24 it certainly isn't AeroMaster RLM 24, which arrived yesterday. It is way too bright, deep and 'blue' and didn't even get into this photo of various tests -



:S In the same way that one ultimately must choose a colour and go with it, one must sometimes also choose between conflicting sources. These tests are based on the assumption that the two drawings pp 46-47 in Classic Warbirds # 8 'Pacific Twins' of NZ4562 & NZ4610, purportedly repainted in Ocean Blue, are incorrectly print-coloured in Sea Blue as per NZ4503 above them and that the best drawing reference for fresh Ocean Blue is NZ4513 ZX-N on the rear cover.
So, I return to Robert E Montgomery's comments in Appendix 3 of Classic Warbirds # 6, viz, "We know that M-485A and B [US Blue-Grey] and [NZ] Blue Sea Grey (earlier known as Blue-Grey) 33B/N.118 match in colour ..." and, "I cannot find any indication that it [NZ Blue Sea Grey] was used at Espiritu Santos when stocks of M-485 Blue-Grey were exhausted."
:blink: I go back to AeroMaster US Blue-Grey as my base colour and, after much mixing and testing arrive at a very slightly greener version I am happy with. US Blue-Grey is on the rear fuselage in this photo, NZ Ocean Blue is on the tailplane - the difference is negligible I admit, and more visible to the naked eye than the camera -



:dry: Now, follow me through the logic of this (if you will). "After being damaged in the action of 24 Dec 1943 it [NZ4509] was sent to No. 4 Repair Depot, Espiritu Santo for repairs, then returned to Guadalcanal and Munda" (Pacific Twins pg 35 photo caption). If she was partially repainted in a Blue-Grey at Espiritu Santo and NZ Blue Sea Grey [Ocean Blue] was not available there but US Blue-Grey was, therefore she's ............. A WITCH!!!
No. :hairpull: Therefore she's partially repainted in US Blue-Grey. In other words, she's partially repainted in fresh paint exactly the same colour as she was delivered in, though following a different overall pattern, roughly that of the 3 tone scheme.
:huh: By this lengthy process of deduction I arrive at my colour for NZ4509's repaint - AeroMaster US Blue-Grey (fresh).
Out of interest, the light colour [bottom right] on this test droptank is Color of Eagles PRU Blue, apparently roughly equiv to faded NZ Ocean Blue -



:cheer: I like it (or variations of it) and the photo on pg 55 of NZ4573 & 4503 repainted in Sea Blue with NZ4518 in Ocean Blue between them bears out just how much Ocean Blue may have faded.
:lol: Finally, my formula for NZ Ocean Blue (NZ Blue Sea Grey) which, using AeroMaster acrylics, will probably have absolutely no meaning whatsoever for any other modellers :( - NZ OCEAN BLUE -
10 parts US BLUE GREY
3 parts NAKAJIMA NAVY GREEN
1.5 - 2 parts UK MEDITERRANEAN BLUE
The entire top P-40K rear fuselage-tailplane in these pictures is painted in it.





"And that's my picture" ;)

The end of my own hunt for NZ Ocean Blue. Those who have followed it are probably just at the end of their tether.
Meanwhile, my paint collection has grown alarmingly in the last few months. Anyone chasing RLM 24? PRU Blue? US Medium Green?
Wally.

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Last edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Wally. Reason: mention paint collection

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #10 by azaminis
Replied by azaminis on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Wally, where do you get all of your NZ decals from for all of your models?

Kraft durch Freude:Strength through joy.
Last edit: 8 years 5 months ago by azaminis.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #11 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
In short - TradeMe, eBay or manufacturer's websites.
Funny you should mention decals ... I have just been looking into them in some depth for this and other upcoming RNZAF WW2 builds.
My main source of RNZAF Decals is Ventura Decals (or Ventura Publications) based in Wellington (I think) and available via website or TradeMe.
www.venturapublications.com/store/index....h=71&sort=20a&page=3
On TradeMe just go to models/aircraft [& your scale] and search 'RNZAF'.
www.venturapublications.com/store/index....h=71&sort=20a&page=3
Currently TradeMe is the best place to buy Ventura Decals if purchasing less than 5 sheets because there is a $1 postage fee as opposed to $5 standard postage on the website.
Likewise search eBay for 1/48 or 1/72 or whatever scale you do "RNZAF Decals"
Or Google "RNZAF Corsair decals" or whatever you are looking for.
Ventura have a good range of RNZAF WW2 subjects, P-40N Kittyhawk, F4U Corsair, Dauntless, Avenger & PV-1 Ventura. Many of these can be used for aircraft which are not the subject of the decal sheet. For instance, I used roundels & fin flashes from 1/48 'P-40N Islands & Home Based' to build NZ3060[9] - the 'Home Based' roundels being the same as our earliest combat Kittyhawks, apart from the reduced red dot on the fuselage roundel.



There is another local player now too. OldModels Decals, who has very recently posted information on this very site ... "new products" I think ...?
He has a website on there and also sells on TradeMe. I have a conversation going with him about "make to order" decals, which might be a viable option in some cases.
Regards Ventura decals, however, there is a long-running and ongoing dispute about the true colour of RNZAF WW2 roundels. Some ... or many ... appear to be darker than Ventura's Mid-Blue or Matt Blue. .
There are but a few sources of darker roundels, the best being (in my opinion) the long sold-out AeroMaster 'The Royal New Zealand Airforce in WW2', which occasionally come up on TradeMe or eBay. Their roundel blue might be roughly equivalent to somewhat faded US Insignia Blue. This decal set has a number of inaccuracies though. I am looking for darker (than Ventura's) blue for my underwing & fuselage roundels & bars on NZ4509. The Dauntless roundels on AM's 'RNZAF in WW2' set are almost the right size but the yellow (or yellow-orange) ring does not go all way around. The borders on the bars are too wide in this case too. I have, however, successfully used their artwork &/or code numbers on several models in conjunction with Ventura roundels, as in TBF-1C Avenger NZ2525 'Maori' -



It's a very useful decal set if you can obtain one and I am even thinking of 'tutu-ing' with it and copying it myself onto decal paper. AeroMaster have also included 1 or 2 RNZAF aircraft in other sets, notably NZ3148[G] Gloria Lyons in one of their P-40 Warhawk/Kittyhawk sets.
The Australian manufacturer Red Roo apparently made RNZAF Roundels some years ago but I have never seen them and I believe they are extremely rare.
There are some sets by decal manufacturers for specific aircraft, as in Zotz Decals (of Mexico)'s "Ocean Raiders" for PV-1 Ventura with several RNZAF options. Their roundels are pure US Insignia Blue though (and a dark tone of it to boot) and I am hoping to save mine for an upcoming build, NZ4562.
Some are almost not worth mentioning because of their ridiculously light roundel colour, except they have artwork unobtainable anywhere else. Rising Decals "Fighting Kiwis" has code numbers, names and bomb mission markings for Corsair NZ5424 "Nan" as well as NZ5416 "Tutae Wera".
No doubt there are others that other members will provide details for.
Over the years a number of kitsets have been issued with RNZAF decal options. About the only one I have ever encountered that was vaguely useable is Hasegawa's P-40 Kittyhawk Mk III 'Wairarapa Wildcat' though I personally think the roundels are too dark. Numerous others have used the same very pale roundel colour as Rising Decals, Italeri's Kittyhawk, Hasegawa's SBD-4 Dauntless .... although, as before, code letters/numbers, serial numbers and artwork might be useful.
For NZ4509 I feel I am kinda stuck with Ventura decals, which, for this build, are not quite correct.
I waffled on again.
Cheers, Wally.

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Last edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Wally. Reason: camera shy Ventura colours

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8 years 5 months ago #12 by Azza
Replied by Azza on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Wally your builds are fantastic! the Avenger is mint - good stuff :)

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8 years 5 months ago #13 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Thanks. More pics of TBF-1C Avenger NZ2525 'Maori' are in Aviation Showcase. Cheers.

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8 years 5 months ago #14 by Wally
Here's a strange dilemma. With painting progressing well I want to keep these build postings going but I don't really want to reveal what NZ4509 will finally look like ... or more correctly, what I think she may have looked like, partially repainted, based on lengthy investigation of a small photograph with a large magnifying glass. She's ready for Vectra or Klear/Future if I can get hold of some. My neighbour scoured Kerikeri supermarkets on Monday to no avail. Here's a few detail pics. The nacelle/cowlings may change. I'm undecided about them at present - the question being, "Is what I am seeing through my magnifying glass lighter paint or brighter light?"









The idea is that after 3 - 4 months back in service following repairs at Espiritu Santos the 'new' US Blue-Grey is beginning to fade (as Blue-Grey was apparently very prone to do). Exhaust output has been added subsequent to these pics and some subdued paint chipping.
The sub-assemblies, wings and tailplane, have not been glued yet.
Cheers, Wally.

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8 years 5 months ago #15 by Andrew
Replied by Andrew on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
I know its a bit late now Wally, but have you seen these?

PV-1 Ventura Cowlings (Revell)

It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

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8 years 5 months ago #16 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Yes, there are propellor correction sets also, resin bomb bay doors (closed) & alternate undercarriage available. I think the cowling set costs nearly as much as the kitset itself. I'd honestly rather open the cowl flaps myself, live without the fine detail and purchase another model. I'm also inclined to await a possible superdetail set from the likes of Eduard or True Details. Cheers, Wally.

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8 years 5 months ago #17 by Wally
:P Time to kill while waiting for the delivery of KM Klear and decals, so, in line with the historic photo (earlier in this thread) of F/O Ayson sitting in 4509's cockpit, I couldn't resist opening the canopy sliding window -



With my trusty hobby knife fitted with brand new super sharp blade this was still a prolonged and potentially dangerous exercise going over and over and over and over the same scorings until I finally wore through the clear moulding. It took about 1 hour! :huh: Painted up it should look great though, if perhaps a little thick.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #18 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Whoops!



Nah, just kidding. This is part of the process of decaling NZ4509 using AeroMaster RNZAF in WW2 decals, which I decided to do A] to represent insignia repainted in US Insignia Blue but slightly faded, & B] to avoid using any of my Zotz 'Ocean Raiders'. My analysis of the photo leads me to believe 4509's repaint included the following differences from those generally applied to Venturas - 1. higher (or longer) & slightly wider fin flashes. 2. Smaller code numbers on the tailplane. 3. (Possibly) slightly smaller fuselage roundels. 4. Larger underwing roundels. 5. Narrow blue borders on all white bars. Little or none of this is available in Ventura or Zotz decals anyhow, so I sacrificed some AeroMaster ... quite a lot of AeroMaster as it happens. Nonetheless, here's my recipe for decaling her (and possibly others) in this style - [unless stated otherwise all decals refered to are AM]
FUSELAGE ROUNDELS & BARS = Dauntless fuselage roundels with the bars cut down to roughly half width. The entire roundel & bar is applied. One then must extend the yellow ring across the white bar. I did this using pieces of Avenger fuselage roundel starboard & Corsair fuselage roundel port. Neither is ideal. Avenger's blue is darker, Corsairs ring slightly wider. Avenger worked better.





Were I doing it again I would sacrifice the other 2 Dauntless fuselage roundels, carefully cut the bars off and overlay them (as per wing insignia later). There will have to be some masking tape damage or something to disguise this ... still, it kinda works ...
LOWER WING ROUNDELS & BARS - Catalina P-AE fuselage roundels complete applied first (hence the top photo "whoops"), then overlay Avenger Upper Wing roundels with the white bars cut off.





UPPER WING ROUNDELS & BARS - Corsair bars split & removed including a small area of the blue. These are applied first. I used a measurement of 5mm in from the outside panel line & 2mm in from the inside one [measurements are a little approximate] and, while still moveable, I ensured the Avenger Lower Wing roundels (which don't have bars) will fit accurately. Then I fixed the Corsair bars and, once dry enough, applied the Avenger Lower Wing roundels.





The Fin Flash is AM Kittyhawk, which I chose to apply full length, and the code numbers AM 45 degree yellow code numbers [my last 2 x '4''s, which will prevent me doing a Corsair with them until I locate another decal sheet].



'Kill' & bomb mission markings are AccMins leftovers.



I enjoyed the exercise, though it was a bit hairy at times ... you need nerves of steel to do this kind of thing (or at least I like to think so). Others may be able to do it without 'overlay', which, in my case, has left some relief in places.
Incidently, the gloss surface is KM Klear (Vectra) and it is the best gloss surface I have ever decaled onto. It is white in the bottle and thin, goes on opaque but clears very quickly and dries in about 4 hours. I did 2 coats.
Cheers, Wally.

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Last edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Wally. Reason: add pic & more info

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8 years 5 months ago #19 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
NZ4509 also appears (to me) to have had her serial number repainted. Ventura decals provides very narrow stencilled serial no.s for the 'as delivered' version but in the post-repaint photo they look thicker & solid. Ventura decals 1/48 Dauntless NZ5064 provides all the digits and some can be applied in sections, eg 'NZ' '4' '5' '09' starboard & 'NZ' '4' '50' '9' port.



Finished pics hopefully within the next few days.
Wally.

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8 years 5 months ago #20 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
The [thick] Aeromaster decals settled nicely under Testors Dullcote, though I did get one small 'run' of the substance I had to deal with. Some final details included painting around the fuselage roundels. It is also evident (to me) from the photo that these roundels as finally applied did not cover the entire area left unpainted for them. It looks kinda strange but then so does the whole machine ...













More pics in GB Build Gallery.
Cheers, Wally.

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8 years 5 months ago #21 by azaminis
Replied by azaminis on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Nice Wally, Im yet to obtain crisp panel lines like you do. Looks awesome.

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8 years 5 months ago #22 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re: PV-1 Ventura - NZ4509 (Revell 1/48)
Thanks. Crisp panel lines shouldn't be difficult with this kit, whatever method you use, since it has rather deep ones. (In his review Tom Cleaver says somewhat too deep). I use Staedler ink pens generally - 0.05 for panel lines, 0.1 or 0.2 for ailierons etc and sometimes lead pencil. With this build & B-25 Mitchell I did them in advance of gloss coat & decaling. The pen can easily slip on gloss and is much easier to control on a matt surface. However, if you miss, it is easier to wipe off a gloss surface. Six of one, half dozen of the other. If you try this way be careful, the ink takes a while to dry. Make sure you don't smear it - I do the lines in sections and wait inbetween - and leave it 6 hours or more before gloss [or matt] coating. After decaling and another gloss coat (final details and in this case Dullcote too) I run through the decals (if I want to) using ink pen again or lead pencil, 3B or 4H I think (though lead pencil will not take to KM Klear). In other words, the panel lines running through the decals on this bird are not sealed. It's an unusual method I think? Most people use washes atop the second gloss coat. It kinda works for me, though I am keen to try dark grey (or umber if it is available in a pen). Any substantial stationer will stock these ink pens. They are about $7.99 each or something but they go an awful long way. Cheers, Wally.

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